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Submitted by Roland Buresund on Tue, 2005-03-15 18:46.

I am getting a bit disappointed on the Drupal community. Not really the community, but the so-called leadership, that seems to enjoy calling newbies idiots, because they dare ask questions in the forums and to excel at telling the users that they are not entitled to have an opinion, as they don't really care what they think. What makes it a bit more sad, is that when people protest against stuff like that, their opinions are then deleted! Granted, it may be off-topic, but then the so-called leadership shouldn't be trolling in the first place.

This cavalier attitude against the user base (together with the technical limitations of the product) is forcing me to change ISP and tool provider again. I am in the process of converting my book reviews to Plone/CMF/ZODB/Zope/Python, which has proven to be a lot easier than I anticipated. The reason I am not switching yet, is that I need to find a good ISP to host at (nothing wrong with WOPSA, but they don't allow me to install my own programs and they don't support Zope), which supplies IMAP and Zope (or a barebones machine, as I can always install Plone/Zope/Cyrus/Squid/Spamassassin/Snort/ACID/Postfix/OpenLDAP myself.

Expect major changes at this site no later than this summer (when the current ISP contract expires).

And before anyone tells me to check Typo 3, I have already done that (I didn't like the strange OO-language, the Christian evangelistic attitude of the founder and the elitistic attitude in the forums, even though it may be a great product). Mambo is nice to look at, but as I need a lot of modules (or call it whatever you like) and need to develop some of them myself, I found that the documentation was lacking, many modules made the system unstable (all FOSS CMS seems to suffer from this) and it was hard to make it work. I also checked e107 (nice looking, but I couldn't find the functionality I was looking for, even though it may be there), Midgard (I never managed to get it to run) and WebGUI (I was scared away by the "line-noise" aka Perl). Silva (a Zope-based CMS) was too basic and CPS lacked real documentation (and that is even though I read French!), but I was really tempted by CPS, as the GroupWare and ERP functionality in it was really nice (if somebody merges CPS and Plone, I'll be in heaven).

Phew, now I think I managed to insult everyone! This is to make you understand why there is a low activity at this site, for now. Happy reading!

What's your point?
Submitted by Gerhard Killesreiter (not verified) on Thu, 2005-03-17 13:25.

Are you really going to change providers and migrate a not-so-small site only because the free support delivered is not cozy enough for you? You must have too much spare time.
In any case, I'd welcome if you could document the migration process on drupal.org.

Cheers,
Gerhard

Not really appropriate
Submitted by Roland Buresund on Fri, 2005-03-18 15:03.

Affirmative, I am in the process of converting to Plone as we speak, not because of the level of support (which is always variable in any FOSS "product"), but because I lack some functionality and because I got feed up with how other people were treated.

Documenting the migration from Drupal to Plone on Drupal.org wouldn't really be appropriate, but I may open a blogline and document my thoughts/problems/etc. on this site, if you would think that would be valuable?

-- "This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours", Aneurin Bevan
I refuse this attack and dema
Submitted by chx (not verified) on Thu, 2005-03-17 13:18.

I refuse this attack and demand that you apologize! I spend considerable time on #drupal-support, Drupal.org and on Drupal.hu to answer questions. I am trying to be as polite and helpful as I can.

Just to inform you: I myself have requested that Dries delete some thread. Maybe it was yours, maybe it was not. But it was off topic. There is an appropriate place for everything.

And yes, you managed to insult a lot of people. If you think it is a good thing, I feel only pity for you.

If you feel, Drupal won't serve your purposes, feel free to change. Have luck.

Your choice
Submitted by Roland Buresund on Fri, 2005-03-18 15:12.
I refuse this attack and demand that you apologize!

I didn't know I attacked you, but your chances of getting an apology because I have a contrarian opinion to yourself, on my own site, is extremely slim.

You admit that certain censorship happens, but you believe there exists a good reason for it. This is your right, but I disagree and most explicitly will not make an apology because I disagree with you, especially as you (partly) confirms my facts.

If you feel, Drupal won't serve your purposes, feel free to change. Have luck.

I believe this is exactly what I am doing?

--

"This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours", Aneurin Bevan

deception and inuendo
Submitted by sepeck (not verified) on Wed, 2005-03-16 17:43.

Your article is interesting. I see nowhere that the 'leadership' calls 'newbies' idiots. I see where that expect people to make an effort when asking quesitons. I see where people DEMAND features from unpaid developers and get upset when told that those same UNPAID developers will not be adding that feature, but that the requester is perfectly welcome to do it themself.

I have seen some of the more active developers be blunt and on occassion rude. I have also seen rants, rudeness and demands from new people. Drupal development is open. Start participating. Show that are going to be helping, contributing, something. Instead, you post this attack on 'Drupal Leadership'. You slander people with a broad brush. You attack by insinuation and inuendo.

Do some developers openly state that they develop for themself and not the gratification of others? Yes. Generally when someone demands that they provide code or a feature and EXPECT it to be delivered. Unless you pay for it, do not expect support. The 'deleted thread' you are complaining about is also deceptive. Dries plainly and CLEARLY said that you may start another thread to discuss that issue, 'http://drupal.org/drupal-4.6.0-rc#comment-31688' but that they were not in the appropriate spot (an Announcement). There are several other spots in the forums where this topic is debated, as people demand and expect free programing from those who voluntarily contribute for their own persoanl reasons.

For the record, please note that there is ONE leader. That is Dries. When has Dries done or said anything that qualifies for your attack? The rest is contribution of code, advocacy of code inclusion over time, discussion and consensues. That is how Drupal evolves.

I am not one of the developers. I am not one of the 'leadership'. I wish you well of your new platform, but please do not blame the CMS package for the lack of activity on your site. (Oh, I have to agree with you on Typo3) Smiling

please do not blame the CMS
Submitted by Roland Buresund on Wed, 2005-03-16 23:10.
please do not blame the CMS package for the lack of activity on your site

I think we have some misunderstanding here; the lack of activity is on my part (i.e., I don't review as many books as I could be doing or write enough articles or update the ToCs as fast as I could or translate enough… ad nauseum) as I spend time converting from Drupal to Plone. The (user) activity on my site is perfectly reasonable for me, even though I miss a real WiKi-functionality to allow more open collaboration.

Regarding leadership: according to Drupal.org themselves, Drupal is managed by a troika. Also, the reasoning behind my article is not based on only the latest incident, but on my observance of of repeated and numerous incidents. I have not been on any receiving end of any of these arguments, but I don't allow censure here (even if the Spam Filter sometimes is a bit overzealous) and I refuse to support it in any way. I think that the so-called deception and innuendo is easily checked by anyone that participates and/or reads the Drupal forums regularly. Granted, mistakes happen and people sometimes are rude, and sometimes users make unreasonable demands, but it the moderators job to regulate that, not just censure some users and allow other (inner circle) users free reign.

In short, I use my right to vote with my feet and selects another software, where people usually are more polite and where it exists a number of forums where people can discuss the CMS and everything around it without being insulted/attacked regularly. Granted, Plone is not perfect and I have been relative satisfied with Drupal, but some of the functionality I am looking for is not present in it and there seems to be a small chance that it will appear. This combined with the attitude, makes a perfect reason for me to change.

--

"This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours", Aneurin Bevan

You still haven't responded
Submitted by sepeck (not verified) on Fri, 2005-03-18 03:58.

ok, I thought you were refering to the lack of activity on your site as Drupal's fault.

Now onto the name calling.


I am getting a bit disappointed on the Drupal community. Not really the community, but the so-called leadership, that seems to enjoy calling newbies idiots, because they dare ask questions in the forums and to excel at telling the users that they are not entitled to have an opinion, as they don't really care what they think.

Where have any of the 'troika' done the above? You won't find it, not because it was deleted, but because it doesn't happen. Some other active developers do honestly respond that they develop for themselves and there own reasons, unless someone who demands features offers to pay for them. You have insulted the three people who have not been guilty of what you claim. And then you avoided answering the charge I leveled by claiming you don't censor. How does your not 'censoring' respond to your vicious attack on the troika's honor?

As to the removal of threads, Dries noted that he did it and indicated that those concerned could continue the conversation in the appropriate area. The other time I have seen action was when a thread was locked. Note, not deleted, locked. I was participant in that little debate and I engaged in no name calling.

You owe a lot of people an apology, but I doubt it will be forth coming.

Respons
Submitted by Roland Buresund on Fri, 2005-03-18 14:51.
ok, I thought you were refering to the lack of activity on your site as Drupal's fault.

It would be interesting to see how you managed to come to that conclusion.

Now onto the name calling.

Interesting, wonder who I singled out in my original message&hellip

I am getting a bit disappointed on the Drupal community. Not really the community, but the so-called leadership, that seems to enjoy calling newbies idiots, because they dare ask questions in the forums and to excel at telling the users that they are not entitled to have an opinion, as they don't really care what they think.
Where have any of the 'troika' done the above? You won't find it, not because it was deleted, but because it doesn't happen.

I think you may surmise from Steven's comment below, that he thinks he is singled out. It is not my intention of pointing any finger at Steven, but like many other people he has an aggressive attitude and are prone to tell people that they should look up stuff in the forums/FAQs before asking them in the forum (and usually in a less than friendly manner). This is an attitude that I can understand in one respect (especially if people have worked in a call-center), but that I believe is missing the important fact that newbies doesn't always search for the right keywords (Drupal, like any FOSS CMS, has its own vocabulary which you have to understand before asking the appropriate question) and therefore some leeway has to be allowed.

I am a former O/S architect, but I don't demean people if they don't know the difference between spinlocks and complex locks, even though I may point them to some litterature to allow them to find out for themselves, instead of answering in detail.

Some other active developers do honestly respond that they develop for themselves and there own reasons, unless someone who demands features offers to pay for them.

And the reasoning to see that this is a valid discussion is what? Oh, it didn't fit under the current forum? But that is a valid reason to ask people to take the discussion somewhere else, not deleting it! And in fact, I personally believed that killes attitude towards users were appropriate, as he may be seen as a key contributor (opinions may of course differ on that).

You have insulted the three people who have not been guilty of what you claim.

I think you will see that at least Steven is aware of the validity of the charges, even though he believes he has a reason to behave like he does (which is his right).

And then you avoided answering the charge I leveled by claiming you don't censor. How does your not 'censoring' respond to your vicious attack on the troika's honor?

Oh, so now you're the troika's honor spokesperson? The only one that has been in contact with me (in this forum) has been Steven, and he has firmly stated that he doesn't agree with me, but I don't see any charge that I insulted his honor. He even suggest that if I want to discuss this further, I should do it at Drupal.org or the ML. So, unless you're the official honor spokesperson for the claimed insulted parties, I don't think I have to answer any so-called "charges". And even then, I would suggest that you sue me in court, if anyones honor has been under "visious attack", as that would constitute libel (you can very easily find the contact information at this site). Good luck.

As to the removal of threads, Dries noted that he did it and indicated that those concerned could continue the conversation in the appropriate area.

I believe this is answered above.

The other time I have seen action was when a thread was locked. Note, not deleted, locked. I was participant in that little debate and I engaged in no name calling.

Now I see the light. Any opinion that you don't agree with, that avoids naming names, but instead talks about a sub-group, is now "name-calling". For the record, Dries has removed threads before. I have no issue with threads being locked (see above), but removal of them is censorship in any dictionary (see for example Dictionary Net).

You owe a lot of people an apology, but I doubt it will be forth coming.

I fail to see the logic in this. I have expressed an opinion about something on my webpage, in blog-format. Do you surmise that I may not express an opinion at my own web-page, and therefore should apologise for having an opinion?

Let us check what it says on the frontpage:

Welcome to The Buresund Pages
Where the Buresund family and friends express their opinions, regardless if the world wants to hear it or not!

Just for reference, I review books and sometimes I have very strong opinions about both the authors and the contents. Do any of the authors ever write me and demand that I apologize for having an opinion that is (a lot) less than flattering? No. Some of them may curse me in private (or even write on some webpage that they think I am totally wrong), but they don't try to get any apology because somebody have an opinion.

You don't like my opinions, which is your right, but I suggest that you refrain from starting some kind of holy war on behalf of other people (this is normally refered to as trolling) that don't even indicate that they have been insulted.

If you feel personally singled out, I suspect I touched a raw nerve.

Just to clarify, I will not "apologize" for having opinions on my own site. If you don't like my opinions, I am not exactly forcing you to read them, and I allow you the possibility of replying to them and refuting them. In fact, it is you who "levies charges" against me, on my site, not me that levies charges against you at Drupal.org or at your site. The question then would be if I would "demand apologies" for your behavior, as you are so rude as to attack me at my own site? My answer to that is that you're entitled to your own opinions, and you're even free to express them at my site, even though I obviuosly don't agree with them.

--

"This Is My Truth - Tell Me Yours", Aneurin Bevan

sigh
Submitted by sepeck (not verified) on Fri, 2005-03-18 19:28.


It would be interesting to see how you managed to come to that conclusion.

I misread how the last statement applied to some of the preceeding. It happens.

On to the discussion.

I am not the spokesman. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitiled to be offended by inaccuraccies and name calling that go with that opinion.

This is the quote.

but the so-called leadership, that seems to enjoy calling newbies idiots,

Your rant started off with a specific claim and broad characterization of an unclearly defined class of people "so-called leadership". When you clarify that class in response to me, you cited the 'Troika'. I have never seen any of the three poeple you narrowed down to call people idiots.

You made a claim of name calling that is not backed by the facts. When I called you on the name calling, you went off in different directions. So I responded, I am not a writer by trade so tend to ramble and wander a bit when I write (I should perhaps correct this, but I prefer to read good books than analyze them). I suspect it is good that I do not write books as I would probably not fair well under anyone's review.

Steven is blunt and very straight forward. When he tells people to search, he often adds short links or specific information to answer the question. Kind of assistence by informing how to find the information in future. Understand that this was my introduction to him a year ago. When I have asked more detailed questions, I have often gotten more precise and specific infomration.

You don't owe anyone an apology for having opinions. You don't owe anyone an apology for not liking Drupal or not using it. You don't owe an apology for thinking people who take time to answer support questions are rude. Your 'fact' that you claim 3 people (you clarified as the troika) call people idiots is untrue. You owe an apology for that. That is what I found insulting. The rest was fine.

I do wish that I had been precise enough to be clear on that in the beginning. That's the problem of not doing a brief outline before writing. I suspect that if I wrote a lot for a living, that I could build the outline in my head.

Volunteer-based support
Submitted by Steven (not verified) on Wed, 2005-03-16 10:16.

If people paid me to answer their Drupal-related questions, then I would gladly answer the most boring or inane questions. But they don't, so I don't.

When some person completely refuses to do any effort to find the answer with their own resources and expects us to cater to their every need, we tend to be annoyed. Especially when the answer is located in the FAQ, or findable with a very simple, logical keyword search.

The post deleting you are talking about is in a thread which specifically tells people (and now multiple times) to use the bug tracker or support forums to report issues. It is now filled with helpful posts and links to just about every piece of relevant documentation too. People ignore it and post their question the first chance they get. That means time wasted for us (we have to answer the same question multiple times) and time wasted for them (they have to wait for answer that is already there).

If you have problems with Drupal, you can discuss this through the appropriate channels (bug tracker, mailinglist, forums, …). If you do so in a polite and clear manner, you will get a polite and clear answer back.

In any case, have fun with Zope. I hope you can afford the server farm needed to run it…

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